[:1]o.O
That 20% in both is an average over time, and applies a strict statistic to it.
Crit is easier to get as well.
When you have a big weapon and it has...IDK 300ED% since it's really good.
Then, you have a jewel in your helmet giving 40% ED.
That's 340 %ED, but not 40% increase in damage.
DS will give that 40% independent of the weapon. Ultimately, it grants more damage due to that "luck".
Increasing speed gives more instances of this DS trigger. The base also is increasing hits, but focus on that doesn't give as much damage as focusing on double damage.
Regardless of base damage or DS, you'll want more attacks per second, naturally. DS just yields better results.
The comparison to CB comes in now. They weren't the same in terms of damage or anything, just an illustration of speed mixed with a % trigger.
You do better with a fast attack relying on CB than you do with a slow, strong attack.
You also swapped DS and DPS. DPS is dependent on crit, not the other way around.|||When referring to %ED, we have to refer to an increase of total dps. As you say, 40%ED is not 40% ED when you already have 300%. So you would have to take all %ed you have on your skills, weapon and sockets, then add a total 40% to that.
Let's say that number is 1000. You would need a 400% ED jewel, but that jewel would be equally powerful to 2x Lo runes. A 40% damage increase or 40% critical strike is the same, over time.
When comparing a total dps increase of 20% to 20% crit, they will remain equivalent regardless of attackspeed. The only difference is that sometimes you are lucky with crit, and sometimes you aren't. Statistically, they will yield the same DPS over time.
Think of it this way with CB:
CB adds a fixed amount of bonus damage regardless of your DPS, thus attackspeed will allow it to proc more often, giving more DPS than with slow attacks.
CS adds a bonus damage based on your DPS, thus wielding large slow weapons will yield the same result as small but quick weapons, asuming their dps is the same. Attackspeed is not a factor with crits.|||Quote:
Speed has everything to do with it.
Since it's a %, your goal is to increase the number of times it hits, thus increasing the number affected by that %.
It's like Crushing Blow. You use it with fast attacks (Smite and DTalon), but wouldn't use it on slow ones as effectively.
Shouldn't have used 20% weapon as an example.
In my head, 20% crit, is 20% crit. Dosen't matter if it's a fast weapon or a slow weapon, it's in percentages. Granted the weapons have the same DPS, it won't matter when it comes to base damage.
You sound quite sure and I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this at the moment, so there's a big chance I'm wrong but atm I just can't seem to figure out how it wouldn't be what I desribed.
I hope crit will have bonusess, such as stun or other triggers though. That would make so much more sense for the monk vs barb category, giving us something special.|||Quote:
When referring to %ED, we have to refer to an increase of total dps. As you say, 40%ED is not 40% ED when you already have 300%. So you would have to take all %ed you have on your skills, weapon and sockets, then add a total 40% to that.
Let's say that number is 1000. You would need a 400% ED jewel, but that jewel would be equally powerful to 2x Lo runes. A 40% damage increase or 40% critical strike is the same, over time.
When comparing a total dps increase of 20% to 20% crit, they will remain equivalent regardless of attackspeed. The only difference is that sometimes you are lucky with crit, and sometimes you aren't. Statistically, they will yield the same DPS over time.
Think of it this way with CB:
CB adds a fixed amount of bonus damage regardless of your DPS, thus attackspeed will allow it to proc more often, giving more DPS than with slow attacks.
CS adds a bonus damage based on your DPS, thus wielding large slow weapons will yield the same result as small but quick weapons, asuming their dps is the same. Attackspeed is not a factor with crits.
Okay, I'll use numbers.
Base damage is a flat 100 for simplicity.
300% ED on that weapon is 400 damage resulting. Add a helm with a 40%ED jewel in it. Your damage is 440.
That added 40% only gave an additional 10% raise in damage.
40% crit on the 300% ED results in a full 40% increase in damage. Tienje once helped explain it:
Quote:
he % chance to deal double damage can be interpreted as a damage multiplier.
algebra:
average damage = (%_normal x damage x 1) + (%_deadly x damage x 2)]
average damage = damage x [%_normal + (2 x %_deadly)]
average damage = damage x [%_normal + %_deadly + %_deadly]
%_normal + %_deadly = 1 <-- by definition
average damage = damage x (1 + %_deadly)
damage multiplier = 1 + %_deadly
so... 50% chance for DS means your average damage increases 50% (multiplier of 1.5)
While ED% hits diminishing returns (the 40% example only changed it by 10%), crit receives full damage boosts.
Quote:
When comparing a total dps increase of 20% to 20% crit, they will remain equivalent regardless of attackspeed. The only difference is that sometimes you are lucky with crit, and sometimes you aren't. Statistically, they will yield the same DPS over time.
That's true, but ED% won't give you that same 20% in the first sentence as easily. As you get stronger, it takes more and more to achieve that 20%, but that's never the case with crit.
And you're still mixing DPS up. Crit isn't based on DPS. It's based on base damage and leads to total DPS.
Speed factors in because crit will only be beneficial due to increased attacks per second (damage is irrelevant).
Since crit is far more beneficial, the goal is to have more instances, which is only done via IAS.|||Quote:
Okay, I'll use numbers.
Base damage is a flat 100 for simplicity.
300% ED on that weapon is 400 damage resulting. Add a helm with a 40%ED jewel in it. Your damage is 440.
That added 40% only gave an additional 10% raise in damage.
40% crit on the 300% ED results in a full 40% increase in damage. Tienje once helped explain it:
While ED% hits diminishing returns (the 40% example only changed it by 10%), crit receives full damage boosts.
First, I already agreed to this if you read my above post. When i mean 40%ED, I mean a total increase of 40% to your DPS, not a 40%ED jewel added or 40%ed skill activated. 400 DPS x 1.4 = 560.
560 DPS vs
400 DPS with 40% crit will, over time, yield the same DPS (not counting secondary effects that we don't know about)
Quote:
That's true, but ED% won't give you that same 20% in the first sentence as easily. As you get stronger, it takes more and more to achieve that 20%, but that's never the case with crit.
We don't actually know how easy that's going to be before the final game is released. Having said that, crit also has dimenishing returns:
100 damage with 0% crit is 100 dps.
100 damage with 95% crit is 195 dps
however
100 damage with 85% crit is 185 dps
195/185 = 1.055
So by increasing your crit from 85 to 95%, your dps is increased just over 5%, not 10%
Quote:
And you're still mixing DPS up. Crit isn't based on DPS. It's based on base damage and leads to total DPS.
Speed factors in because crit will only be beneficial due to increased attacks per second (damage is irrelevant).
Since crit is far more beneficial, the goal is to have more instances, which is only done via IAS.
DPS as you know means damage per second.
Let's take a slow maul with high damage: 100 damage, 1 attack per second.
100 DPS
Let's take a fast sword with low damage: 50 damage, 2 attacks per second
100 DPS
now take those 100 dps, multiply it by your crit %. If it's 20%, it's 120 DPS.
Increasing your attackspeed by 10% would only accomplish the following:
Maul: 100 damage, 1.1 attack per second
110 DPS
Sword: 50 damage, 2.2 attack per second
110 DPS
Multiply by crit chance: 110 x 1.2 = 132
Obviously, IAS increases your DPS, but it's quiet careless about how fast your attack. If you attack twice as slow, but with a twice as damaging weapon, you end up doing the same damage.
Crushing blow however, takes your DPS and adds a number to that. This number is based on their health and reductions, but for simplicity let's say that this number is 50.
Maul:
100 Damage, 1 attack pr. second. 1 crushing blow proc.
100+50 = 150 DPS
Sword
50 damage, 2 attacks pr. second. 2 crushing blow proc
100+100 = 200 DPS
This is why CB relies on IAS while Crit does not (again, excluding secondary effects)
I do however agree with you that crit is likely going to be very powerful due to:
1) Crit can go over 200% damage
2) Crit can cause secondary effects (this is the big issue here i think)|||Crit doesn't rely on it, it benefits more from it.
Because it grants a far bigger boost in damage augmentation, that's why speed factors in.
Crit & speed > more ED%.|||Sadly that's not a very solid argument. Kemo is rightfully puzzled by your post, since it's incorrect.
Crit cares about your DPS, not your attackspeed since it's a % and not a fixed number.|||DPS is defined BY your crit chance. It's one of it's factors along with damage and attack speed.
Crit does not care about DPS. Anything % will directly care about IAS.|||I think I might have figured out my confusion.
The diffrence between weapon DPS and a characters DPS, as weapon DPS will benefit from charater IAS increase(from spell etc).
I'm gonna stop thinking about this now though, as I'm hungover and going out in 15 minutes and it's just too painfull to think about.|||Yes I have nothing further to add either.
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